Interview with David Horowitz
June 6, 1997
Chuck Baldwin: David Horowitz is the president for the Center of Study of Popular Culture. A best-selling author and editor, Horowitz may be best known for his lifelong, intellectual and political journey. Horowitz earned a Bachelor's degree from Columbia University in 1959 and a Master's degree from the University of California at Berkley in 1961. Horowitz quickly became a leader of the "new left." During the '60s Horowitz edited Rampart's Magazine an influential left-wing journal. In the 1970s, dissatisfied with the tragic consequences of radical policies in America and abroad Horowitz withdrew from politics. He and his partner, Peter Collier, then co-authored a series of best-selling biographies of prominent American families; the Rockefellers, the Kennedys, the Fords and the Roosevelts. For these works the Los Angeles Times called Horowitz and Collier the premiere chroniclers of American dynasty tragedy. In 1978 Horowitz was honored with a Guggenheim Fellowship. And in 1990 he received the Teach Freedom award from former President Ronald Reagan. During the '80s Horowitz's second thoughts about politics crystallized. In their 1989 book Destructive Generations, Second Thoughts about the '60s Horowitz and Collier chronicled the legacy of the "new left" and its affects on American politics and culture. Horowitz's political journey is recounted in his autobiography, Radical Son, which was published by the Free Press in February 1997. Author George Gilder has called Radical Son the first great American autobiography of his generation. In '88 Horowitz created the Center for the Study of Popular Culture. The center boasts 40,000 plus members and publishes four magazines. One of Horowitz's current concerns is bringing new voices to Hollywood. In 1997 he and the center held the second annual Images of Ourselves conference at the Walt Disney Studios. Appearing in 1996 at Paramount Studios were Senator Sam Nunn and Bill Bennett. This year Senators John McCain and Fred Thompson were brought together with Sky Dayton, founder of the Earth Link Network along with the best and brightest in the Hollywood industry to discuss the future of online entertainment. In the words of L.A. Magazine, "Holding this forum would have been unthinkable several years ago." David Horowitz has spoken at over 75 colleges and universities. He has appeared on Nightline, Crossfire, Today, Good Morning America, C-SPAN, CNBC and the CBS Morning News and gives hundreds of interview yearly on talk radio. And we welcome to "Chuck Baldwin Live", David Horowitz. Thank you for joining us today, Sir.
David Horowitz: Well, thank you Chuck.
Chuck Baldwin: How did you come to call yourself "radical son?"
David Horowitz: Well, my parents were card-carrying members of the American Communist Party. That was helpful. I grew up in the early cold-war period. And I grew up in a community that was part of a vast international conspiracy, just as the anti-Communists said it was. It was orchestrated from Moscow, funded by the Kremlin and it had treason in its heart. Now everybody can know that, either by reading Radical Son or because of the Venonia transcripts, which have recently been released. These are the decoded transcripts of contacts between the Kremlin and the KGB and its agents in America. It shows just an extensive networking of spies and people who are working as agents for the Soviet Union and it shows the money trail that underwrote all that.
Chuck Baldwin: Are you saying that the liberal agenda of the '60s was synonymous with the Communist agenda?
David Horowitz: Radical Son is the only book that will tell that story from the inside, from the point of view of somebody who was in the left. I was 17 in 1956 which was when the Communist left really disintegrated because of the famous Khrushchev report. When Khrushchev revealed the crimes of Stalin. Because it was the Communist Pope speaking the flock listened and they were very demoralized and the Communist party went from 60,000 members to 3,000 in two years. I was seventeen at the time and a member of the generation that then went on to create the "new left." It's true that the "new left" was very much created by what we called ourselves "red diaper babies", who were trying to revive the Communist project and escape the taint of the past of Stalin. We see that actually happening again today where people are calling themselves progressives. They want to forget that they supported the Communist empires when they were alive and kicking. They have been very successful at it once again and we were very successful in the early '60s. And we shaped the political culture of those '60s. We called ourselves a "new left" as though there could be such a thing.
Chuck Baldwin: There's no doubt that you shaped the culture.
In the book, I notice a picture of you with Ron Radosh and his daughter at Karl Marx's tomb, High Gate Cemetery, London 1966. I take it that when that picture was taken you had quite an infatuation for Karl Marx.
David Horowitz: Oh yea, I was a Marxist. And I describe in the book how when I was in London I was approached by the KGB. This agent took me to lunch and eventually asked me to spy for the Soviet Union. He put money in my pocket and so forth. I happened to reject his advances. I had more ambitious goals for myself which was I guess to be the new Marx or something like that. But I saw him talking to a lot of other people on the "left" whom I knew. And I know, not only from personal experience, but from talking to people that there were many, many, there must have been hundreds maybe thousands of contacts between "new leftist" and the KGB and the Cuban Intelligence and Vietnamese Communist. I am the only one who has reported these incidents that I know about in Radical Son. That's why my book, I think, would be very valuable for conservatives. It's a vindication. Of those of you who are listening to this who have spent 50 years fighting to defend America's freedoms and got nothing but scorn for it will get a lot of pleasure out of Radical Son. Because it vindicates the struggle that you waged, which was a noble struggle and a patriotic one. And it's just too bad that patriotism is held in such low esteem in the liberal dominated culture that we live in.
Chuck Baldwin: Absolutely. David, many times I will refer to liberalism as the "first cousin" of communism. Is that a fair statement?
David Horowitz: Let me give you a more amusing formulation. James Burnham once said, "The difference between the Communists and the liberals is that the Communist know what they're doing." Of course liberalism is on a continuum with Marxism, there's no question of it, particularly in the post-sixties world. Because the radicals of the "new left" were anti-Communist. John F. Kennedy was an anti-Communist liberal and so was Hubert Humphrey and that's why we "new leftist" hated them. But we pushed the Democratic party pretty far to the left and got rid of the Hubert Humphrey wing more or less. The Democratic party is in such a state that a Sam Nunn could not even run for the nomination, Sam Nunn being a man of character and integrity, unlike Clinton who could lie to everybody and I guess people have such a powerful will to believe that he has gotten away with it so far.
Chuck Baldwin: Where did Bill Clinton fit into that "new left."
David Horowitz: I don't think that Clinton believes in anything but himself. I think his wife is a "leftist." And a lot of people around them, particularly in the first administration would have been my comrades in the '60s. Liberalism often departs from the Communist left in terms of its choice of means. They want the same ends but they don't have the stomach for the brutality that's necessary along the way. Liberals are people who do believe that society causes all the problems, that people are really equal and that if it weren't for society we wouldn't have any criminals or wars. They are always going on about ending war as if that's a real possibility or I guess it's called now "leveling the playing field" as though you can take human beings who are obviously so different in their capabilities that they can never be made equal and force them to be equal. And all that means is that they're going to get the government to stick its hands in your pockets and pick out what you've earned and give it to somebody who couldn't or wouldn't earn it themselves.
Chuck Baldwin: Back to Clinton just for a second. We do know that he went to England and marched against American interests in Vietnam and we have reports that he was somewhere in the Soviet Union at the invitation of the KGB.
David Horowitz: Well, he was probably having the same kind of lunches I describe in Radical Son with the KGB. Of course, anybody who doesn't talk about it, like Tom Hayden and people like that who actively collaborated with the Communist is obviously concealing stuff that would embarrass them. One of the things about Radical Son, the book I've just written, is that it is embarrassing to many people including myself. I mean, you can't tell the truth if that's what you were doing in those days, without embarrassing yourself. And I can't say that it was pleasant for me to do it but I do feel that I'm paying a debt to society and to this wonderful country that we live in.
Chuck Baldwin: There's no doubt that you are and we applaud you for it. David, how do we come to understand your journey from radical left to staunch conservative. What happened?
David Horowitz: Well, in the early '70s I got involved with the Black Panther party. At the time I was the editor of the largest magazine of the "left", the Ramparts. And Huey Newton had said that it was time to put away the gun, in the '60s he said, "It was time to pick up the gun." He was the minister of defense of the Black Panther party, its leader. He was an icon of the '60s. There is a poster of him in a wicker throne with a shotgun and a spear on every college dorm room in the country. Tom Hayden was calling the Panthers America's Vietcong. STF called them the vanguard of the revolution. You know, Marlin Brando demonstrated for them. Leonard Bernstein, the conductor, raised a lot of money for them. Anyway, Newton had said its time to put away the gun and serve the people and a Hollywood producer introduced me to him. And I set out to raise money to buy buildings to house a school the Panthers had, mainly for their children. And I raised about a $100,000 and bought a Baptist church in Oakland's inner city and called it the Oakland Community Learning Center and turned it over to the Panthers. And I encouraged a woman named Betty Van Tanner, who was 42 years old at the time and the mother of three children and who was my bookkeeper at Ramparts to do the bookkeeping for this school. And in December, 1974 Betty disappeared. Six weeks later the police fished her body out of San Francisco Bay. Her head had been bashed in by a blunt instrument and I knew at that moment that the Black Panthers had murdered her. And that was really the end of my career in the "left." I was devastated. I felt responsible for encouraging her to take the position. I saw that the police were paralyzed and couldn't conduct a serious investigation. They knew the Panthers had killed her but it's very difficult when you have a gang for the police to identify the killers. The press, even though she was a white woman who was murdered by blacks and in fact probably especially because of that, they were completely uninterested in the story or in pursuing any investigation. I saw that the "left" protects murderers and gangsters. The Panthers killed more than a dozen people, the others were all black. The core of the story in Radical Son is the story of the murder and the aftermath and I've just given you a little of it. And I name the murderers who are still at large, not just at large, but are celebrated in the liberal culture. You know if my book had been about a "right-wing militia" that had killed a dozen people and I named the killers who were in prominent places in America today and I named a Republican governor as I have a Democratic governor who had helped them and identified a whole conservative media instead of a liberal media that protected them. If this was about a right-wing militia, this book would be in the front pages of every newspaper in this country.
Chuck Baldwin: No doubt.
David Horowitz: 60 Minutes would be doing investigative reports or be on prime time live. You know, I hired Rodgers and Calendom, the most powerful PR firm in the country for this book and we could not get one of those shows to deal with this. And that's because it's about black progressives who kill people. And I think before the O.J. Simpson case Americans might have had a hard time believing my story. But now everybody can see that if you have a black murderer of white people in this country in this time and the lawyer is a radical like Johnny Cochran who was a Panther lawyer himself. It's very, very difficult to convict a black man for such a crime. Because all this lawyer has to do is to turn the jury's attention away from the evidence and instead indict the police as racists and America as racists. And once a lawyer like Johnny Cochran or the other Panther lawyers like Charles Gerry and William Kunstler convince a jury that America is racist, then they don't even have to prove the police planted evidence, because being white what else would they do. So anti-white racist has this country become in its liberal culture that black murderers walk free while if your white like Jimmy "the Greek" or Al Campanous or Fuzzy Zoeller you could have your career destroyed by a remark that didn't even have malicious intent. This country is in a terrible state on the race issue because of these double standards. But in Radical Son I've told the story of how this all began. You know in Los Angeles this week, we just had another Panther released, Geronimo Pratt killed a woman 27 years ago on a Santa Monica tennis court and Johnny Cochran was his lawyer then and has secured his release today.
Chuck Baldwin: How pervasive is the influence of liberalism in our culture?
David Horowitz: Liberalism dominates the culture. The language is liberal. We speak of have's and have nots as though somebody doled out the goodies when we were all born. I think it's 70% of the millionaires in this country are first generation. That is they made their money. It's not just millionaires, if you have a modest house your a "have" compared to the people on welfare who "have not." Why don't we use terms, like the "do's" and the "do nots" and the "cans" and the "cannots" and the "wills" and the "will nots?" Because that's what really there. There's nothing stopping anybody in this country from taking care of themselves and making some money. A year ago, the papers had a story about a woman named Osceola McCarty in Mississippi, 80 year old black woman lived her whole life in Mississippi, the poorest state in the Union and the one with the probably the most racists - the most actual racists, she was a cleaning woman, black cleaning lady, and she accumulated from her working hard and saving her money, $150,000 which she gave for scholarship funds at the University of Southern Mississippi. Well, if Osceola McCarty can do that why can't anyone else. The answer is: They can. The rest is all excuses.
Chuck Baldwin: Our education, our media, as well as the government now with the Clinton administration are dominated by liberals, yes?
David Horowitz: You had better believe it. Again, I've written this book the Radical Son, I tell the story of the Black Panthers, I show what a murderous gang they were. I show how they've gotten away with murder. This guy just got out. Have you seen any notice of this in the paper? The media is far to the left.
Chuck Baldwin: Why are liberals willing to overlook things that are obviously wrong? Murder is not a conservative or a liberal matter. Why are they willing, David, to overlook these things?
David Horowitz: Well, I think that liberals have in their mind that there is some grave injustices committed against blacks which there probably was but so it was also against Vietnamese, Jews, Poles, Irish and I could go right down the list. And therefore, they are willing to excuse this kind of stuff and they don't want to make noise about it. Somebody just faxed me a story from San Francisco, blacks beating up Vietnamese and hurling racial epithets at them. You're not going to read that in your paper.
Chuck Baldwin: And what about the fact that Christians are being persecuted around the world?
David Horowitz: The same thing. It's easy to beat up on Christians. There's a target group. You can do anything to Christians and the liberal media is not going to make hardly anything out of it. Because in their perverse view of the world they see Christians as persecutors, they see whites as persecutors. You don't want to start blaming the victims. Reality is the black community is always presented as a victim. Black males are 6% of the population, they commit 50% of the violent crimes in this country. One in three young black males is a convicted criminal.
Chuck Baldwin: Have you received much opposition from your former buddies on the "left?"
David Horowitz: Certainly I have! I know that 60 Minutes turned this book down you know because of the radical producers, somebody I knew from the '60s at Berkley.
Chuck Baldwin: It seems to me that the great heritage and history of our country is being rewritten, revised, and ignored, and that it is intentional. Yes or no?
David Horowitz: Oh, it's very intentional.
Chuck Baldwin: Why?
David Horowitz: Well, because whoever controls history, the past, controls the future. And the "left" that tried to burn down the universities in the '60s went back in the '70s to take it over. And our liberal arts faculty, particularly history are controlled by radicals, Marxists and other leftists. They have systemically set out to rewrite the textbooks and will continue to do so until they are stopped.
Chuck Baldwin: So it's safe to say that liberals, generally speaking, have no affinity for the heritage and history of the United States and want to change it?
David Horowitz: They hate America and that's the bottom line.
Chuck Baldwin: Why do they hate America?
David Horowitz: Yea, it seems unreal doesn't it? They hate America because America stands in the way of their dream. They see a world in which there is no private property, in which they are the commissars and they get to make everybody equal. They have this vision and they blame everything that is wrong on society. You know look, if somebody commits a crime, society made them do it, that's their view. If I saw one in every three young black males, this is a statistic nobody challenges, is a convicted criminal, of course when you read about it in the papers they'll say, is involved in the Criminal Justice System either as a inmate on probation or on parole. And the reader has to figure out well, if they're on probation or on parole or in prison they must think convicted of a crime. When the leftist sees that or the liberal, Jesse Jackson leftist or the Clinton liberal what do they say? They say, "Oh, it's the racist criminal justice system that's putting so many blacks in jail." You look at the District of Columbia, which not only has a black mayor, a black police chief but an all black administration and all black city council there's 95% of the inmates in the city jail are also black. All of our big cities tend to have black police chiefs and many of them black mayors. These people are in jail because they're criminals. But the liberal then will go back and say, "Well, they're criminals because of the hundreds of years of slavery and discrimination." That's just another excuse that liberals will endlessly make.
Chuck Baldwin: And as is so typical with these left-wing groups, they only attack America. You never find them attacking the atrocious behavior of China.
David Horowitz: Because America is responsible for the atrocious behavior of China. You have to get the radical mentality. Peter Collier and I have called it the "devil made me do it theory" of history. Why is Castro, who has made his island an island prison, why is the gross national product lower then it was when he took power, why are they riding around on bicycles instead of in cars like the rest of the 20th century? Answers: Because of America. It's the United States blockade. It ignores the fact that the economy was ruined by his Socialist plans. It ignores the fact that the Soviet Union for years gave Cuba five, six, seven billion dollars in aid per year, even though they only have ten million people. It ignores the fact that all the rest of the world has traded with Castro from the beginning. It doesn't matter to them. The United States is responsible. You know, why is China bad, why do they put people in jail, because the bad Capitalists the Imperialists made China backward.
I was on a radio show yesterday talking about another book that Peter and I have done. One of the callers, a black caller - I was talking about the affirmative action in the universities. Nobody in his right mind thinks that our liberal colleges are systemically keeping blacks out, so why do we need affirmative action policies? The answer is, because blacks don't score well on the tests. And instead of saying, "There's a real problem in the black community of educating its children, let's blame whitie." So this guys explanation was slavery. You know, come on, how long are we going to blame slavery for all the problems in the black community. It would be like every time a Jew did something wrong it's because of the Holocaust, 2,000 years of persecution. It doesn't seem to apply to the Vietnamese who come here into an alien culture where they don't speak the language. I don't see very many Vietnamese protesting about the cultural bias of college admission exams. Yet, blacks have been here for 350 years, they're complaining that there's a cultural bias in the tests. And nobody will say, this is nuts, this is whining, this is just the old excuse game.
Chuck Baldwin: It goes back to personal accountability does it not? Liberals hate accountability.
David Horowitz: Well, yes. The whole difference is that liberals are people who believe that society is the root of all evil. Either they've forgotten or they never believed what they read, hopefully as children in the first chapters of Genesis which would explain to them that the problem of evil in the world is not society, it's us.
Chuck Baldwin: Exactly.
David Horowitz: Human beings had, not only a socialist paradise but Garden of Eden was better than a socialist paradise. You didn't have to work, there was no pain, you didn't die. All you had to do was not to do one thing. Human beings are ornery and they are prone to do bad things. That's why we have religion. That's why we have laws. And liberals can't seem to get that through their head. They think the problem in our society is law enforcement. The problem is the criminals.
Chuck Baldwin: Exactly.
David Horowitz: It gets so you can hear my frustration I know. You have to take these people who they look like adults but they certainly haven't learned anything in all these years.
Chuck Baldwin: David, is it safe to say that the National Democratic Party has been captured by liberalism?
David Horowitz: Well, to return to my book, Radical Son, I actually tell the story of how this happened, it's by radicals. In Radical Son I tell the story how Tom Hayden planned the riot that took place at the Democratic convention in '68. Just to give people a little history, in 1948 which was my first political demonstration I marched in the demonstration, it was a Communist controlled mayday parade. And we were chanting, 1,2,3,4 we don't want another war, that was the cold war against Communism; 5,6,7,8 win with Wallace in '48, that was Henry Wallace. And what happened in 1948 is that the Communists who had been tremendously influential in the Roosevelt years marched out of the Democratic party because they didn't like Harry Truman had sent military aid to Greece and Turkey to resist the Communist takeover. And so the Communist party organized a new party, it was called the Progressive party. They got FDR's former Vice President, Henry Wallace to be their presidential candidate. And they got a million and a half votes. That was when the "left" marched out of the Democratic party and they stayed out until 1972. And it's interesting that a young politician who cut his eye teeth in the Wallace campaign of '48, that was his first big campaign was George McGovern. But what happened to make the McGovern candidacy possible was that Tom Hayden in 1968 organized the riot at the Democratic party convention. Of course, the history books will call it a police riot and image that Richard Daly started the riot, but it was Tom Hayden who picked Chicago and plotted enough provocations so that a riot ensued which I describe in my book. And the result was that Hubert Humphrey, who was an anti-Communist liberal his presidential chances were destroyed. Humphrey would have been president in '68 if it weren't for this demonstration. And in the year that followed, Tom Hayden, Jane Fonda and other radicals marched into the Democratic party, changed the rules and shifted the party far to the left from what it once was. And that's why you have all those former Democrats like Ronald Reagan and Charlton Heston who are now Republicans.
Chuck Baldwin: What do you think is the future of the country? Will we be able to rebound from this take-over of liberalism of our culture?
David Horowitz: You know, I think it depends on which day of the week you ask me! Which side of the bed I got up on! There's a lot of cause for pessimism because the left has been so successful at penetrating the culture and the majority of the country seems so complacent and asleep as its rights are eroded. On the other hand, there's been a revolt in this country against this every since the '60s. The Goldwater movement really launched an American conservatism that had not been seen in this country prior to that and was successful in capturing the White House. Recently, in 1994 of course, for the first time we've been able to make a serious challenge to the Democrats block on the legislative branch of government, which in some ways is the most important branch because it is the branch that makes the laws and that funds the budgets. You know, it's too early to tell whether, I guess let's call it the Gingrich revolution, will have been stalled or whether it will continue to roll. I think a lot depends on listeners to your show and other shows like it. Radical Son, just to pick a very personal point of view, is in its sixth printing because of talk radio. The people have been rising and creating their new avenues of communication like talk radio. If people will not give up and if they will fight in their local school boards for these changes in the curriculum. If they will find out what's happening with their children and defend the values of this country, its religious values, its political values. Then I think that we have a very good chance of taking the country back. But the issue will be decided by the great mass of the American people and nobody really knows what they're going to do.
Chuck Baldwin: I agree with your assessment that there is much lethargy and indifference. Maybe it's because of the prosperity that we enjoy at this point in history. Maybe it's because we're so far removed from tyrannical forces that we've forgotten what it feels like to suffer under those kind of regimes. But I agree with you that lethargy is a huge problem in this country. I also agree that because of things like talk radio and books like yours (Although I don't know of another book like yours!) there seems to be a resurgence of those who share the conservative agenda who now are willing to speak out and not be silent.
David Horowitz: Chuck, I have an 800 number for people who can't get this book in their local bookstore. It would be good to call your local bookstore but if Chuck had a hard time you might have one too. It's 800-399-1996. I also have a web site at www.cspc.org . But if you can that 399-1996 number, they'll tell you how to get a copy of Radical Son and I will also send you a free copy of our magazine which is called Heterodoxy or the Report Card which is about education reform. I would urge you all to call it and just be in touch with us. Just ask for information because we put out a lot of information. We have another book, maybe you'll want us on a little later Chuck, called the Race Card. I've written a little pamphlet called Why I'm Not a Liberal which tells that Osceola McCarty story. But Radical Son it's a bomb, I know I shouldn't say this on talk radio shows because the president might hold a press conference and attack it, put into the hands of the "right" and I hope you use it well.
Chuck Baldwin: You mentioned education. One of the things that we've seen here is that when there is any opposition, no matter how small, to the policies of the NEA the liberal establishment goes ballistic.
David Horowitz: Well, look it's the biggest Socialist sector in the country, I mean bigger than the Post Office folks. Here we have all our little children going to a Socialist enterprise from practically out of the cradle and into the Socialist state, it's controlled by parents with teachers. The Mayday Parade that I talked about earlier I marched in the contingent elite New York City Teachers' Union, which was controlled by the Communist Party and not a lot has changed let me tell you. These are radicals, they have power, they've got power over your children, they have a monopoly of the schools. The schools are one of the few areas in our economy and society where there's no connection between effort and reward. You're two years a teacher and you have a lifetime job and where you get raises, not according to whether you actually teacher the kids but according to how long you've served in the system and they will defend these privileges with tooth-and-nail, and they do. J.C. Watts and Floyd Flake leading a bill which will give scholarships to inner-city kids to get out of those failing schools and you better believe that they're going to go hammer-and-tongue at it, the NEA and the Teachers' Union and the Democratic Party, which the Teachers' Union virtually controls, they have the most powerful special interests in the country. It's a benefit for bad teachers because they're going to get high salaries without having to do any work. But one study showed that in a Chicago area 50% of the members of the Teachers' Union sent their own kids to private schools which tells you how bad the schools are but it also tells you that the benefits that the Teachers' Union has gotten them they're having to pay out to private schools because the public schools are such a disaster.
Chuck Baldwin: Yet, they use words like pluralism, tolerance, diversity.
David Horowitz: Oh yea they're very tolerant toward Christians and Christian conservatives.
Chuck Baldwin: Just the opposite, they're tolerant of everything EXCEPT Christianity.
David Horowitz: They're not tolerant. They're vicious and they're intolerant. With few exceptions, let me say, the liberals that I meet are vicious and intolerant. I think conservatives sometimes forget that. I guess liberals aren't hitting them with quite enough so that they can forget that. I'm thinking of Jack Kemp, thanking Al Gore in the debate for singling him out as the only Republican who wasn't a racist. Well, thank you too Jack.
Chuck Baldwin: Yeah, that was an incredible thing. But we've noticed it here at the local level in our area that in the name of tolerance everything is tolerated except true American history and Judeo-Christian ideology.
David Horowitz: Of course and you've got to hold them to account. Peter Collier and I have written a pamphlet called It's a War Stupid. I'll send you a copy Chuck. You know, we're trying to point out that conservatives are too damn decent and too forgiving and too tolerant of this kind of stuff. It's the liberals who are the racists and the liberals who are the bigots and you need to call them that first. When you get into a debate with a liberal nail them quickly on these issues. They're the ones who will fight to the death to keep inner-city black kids from getting scholarships so they can go to private schools to get out of these traps they're in. They're the ones who attack the police. I mean the main victims of black crime are blacks. It's the liberals who are keeping the police from doing their job. Who have our police forces undermanned, underpaid and under supported. It's liberalism that destroyed the inner-city black family with its welfare state that punishes fathers for staying in the home, that rewards teenagers for having kids out of wedlock and on and on. Conservatives don't enough fight the battle that way. The oppressors of the poor are sitting in the White House today and I hope people out there won't let them forget that.
Chuck Baldwin: David, thank you very much for being part of our show today.
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