INTERVIEW WITH DR. KENNY McCOMAS
April 13, 1998
Chuck Baldwin: Dr. McComas served for nearly twenty years as the senior pastor of one of the largest Baptist Churches in the state of Ohio. For some twenty years since he has been traversing the length and breadth of this country in full-time evangelistic ministry. Dr. McComas is a Christian patriot. He has had several of his sermons entered into the Congressional Record in Washington, D.C. He is also the author of over fifty books. He knows the heartbeat of the churches and the moral/spiritual condition of our country as few do.
Dr. McComas, thank you very much for taking time out of your schedule to be with us today.
Dr. McComas: My pleasure.
Chuck Baldwin: Do you believe our nation is collapsing from within, a great economy notwithstanding?
Dr. McComas: I think you would have to be totally blind, deaf and dumb to not see that happening.
Chuck Baldwin: There are many that seem to have the attitude that as Christians all we should do is: go to work, pay our taxes, pray for the government, preach the Gospel on Sunday within our own church walls and that's the total extent of our responsibility to our country. How do you respond to that?
Dr. McComas: Well, of course, the Word of God is our example. When Moses went to Pharaoh he didn't just simply suggest that what he was doing was wrong. When Joshua stood before the leaders of Israel he had to pay an awful price. When John the Baptist was willing to tell Herod that it was wrong for him to live in an adulterous condition he lost his head for that. And if the Word of God, and it is, our example then there is a terrible shortcoming on the part of Gospel preachers, pastors in particular today.
Chuck Baldwin: And what is that shortcoming?
Dr. McComas: They are just not exposing the errors of what is going on and they are not giving their people the Biblical examples of what we are supposed to be doing.
Chuck Baldwin: You know, I find it disheartening when national religious figures like Billy Graham, Robert Schuler and others can seemingly condone and justify the activities of Bill Clinton. Do you think that that example is being mimicked in the local pulpits or is it something deeper than that?
Dr. McComas: I think there's no question that these men are held in high esteem by many people and they are mimicking and parroting the same thing that they're saying because they look up to these men. But I am literally astounded that men of this caliber and men who know that they have such tremendous influence on so many people would be so cowardly in their position. And yet, it seems as though that at any cost, that not only are they diametrically opposed to the Word of God, but they are "playing up" to these men of political power. I do not understand why there would be such an awful compromise. And I think it's an indictment against Christianity as a whole today.
Chuck Baldwin: Good afternoon, Gene. Thanks for calling.
Gene: Good afternoon Pastor Chuck. I wish to thank you and Crossroad Church for bringing in such an outstanding Christian leader. It's my pleasure to congratulate you folks on bringing such talent into our community.
Chuck Baldwin: We're kind of proud to have him.
Gene: Yes, Sir. He's a man of God to the core.
You know the problem is very, very simple, Pastor. The Constitution, which this country is supposed to be governed by, was founded on that age old book of wisdom, the Bible. And somewhere along the line we as Christians, we as just citizens, let's take the Christians out of it. We as citizens have allowed the prince of this earth to go in there and take God out of our Constitution and replace it with ungodly laws which have subverted the Constitution, not changed it. They know they can't do that. So what did they do? They go change it by law, by court decisions to such an extent now, Pastor, if we don't get down and humble ourselves on our knees before God and ask forgiveness for the corporate sins of America and go out and restore that Constitution we're going to suffer a wrath like we've never suffered before.
Chuck Baldwin: I couldn't agree more. Dr. McComas your response. Thanks Gene.
Dr. McComas: Well, you know when Robert McNamara held high office in Washington he was considered one of the brains on the Constitution. And of course he headed up a committee that studied the need for the change of the Constitution. And in his own words he said that it no longer met the need. And that it was antiquated and it was fine when our country was small but today it wouldn't meet the needs because we had broadened into such a great spectrum and we include so many different avenues of problems.
Isn't it interesting that Ford Motor Company poured big money through Robert McNamara's committee to study the changes needed? They're still doing that by the way. And of course, Robert McNamara, when he was head of the Ford Motor Company the Edsel happened to be one of his creations and it almost bankrupted the Ford Motor Company.
And we have these kind of men at the head of these committees that doesn't seem to understand even the simple matters of life much less the complexity of our great nation. And the Constitution, in my opinion, should not be tampered with. It's simple enough that we can all understand it and know exactly what it means. But unfortunately, the politicians are playing with it, they're trying to bypass it and in many cases they're getting by with it.
Chuck Baldwin: There's no doubt that they're getting by. In fact I think if our Founding Fathers could see the kind of judgements that are rendered today from both the bench and the legislative bodies, and especially the Executive branch, they would roll over in their graves to realize how this Constitution has been circumvented. But let's remember this too, the Constitution, and many of the Founding Fathers wrote and spoke to this, was totally dependent upon our people being morally righteous. That without the moral integrity of the American people the Constitution was incapable of governing this country. We are totally dependent upon the Judeo-Christian value system being placed in the mainstream of American life and culture. When we divorce our culture and our society from those values and from those principles then we are left to our own devises.
An example of this is the lawyer for Monica Lewinsky, who is supposed to be a servant of the court, a servant of the law who said in a scathing rebuke to Ken Starr that the law and the Constitution were subservient to the will of the people. In other words he was saying that what we have in America is mob-rule. The Founding Fathers recognized that propensity. They knew that if we ever abandoned, not only loyalty to the Constitution, but loyalty to the God of the Constitution, the God of the Bible, the God of moral behavior, the God of righteousness then the Constitution would be brought to nothing. The real problem is we no longer have, it seems, a moral people who are righteous enough to abide by the contract that we have made with ourselves and with God.
Dr. McComas: That's exactly right. I'm sure that the Founding Fathers never dreamed that there would be such immoral characters being in offices of high places. For example, Vice-President Gore said when he admitted that he knew it was wrong to solicit campaign funds from the White House suggested that since there was no one on hand to enforce the law he thought it was alright to do it. So, now we have a set a laws that we're living by, if you can get by with it, go ahead and do it irregardless of what the law or the Constitution says.
Chuck Baldwin: We could even say we have two sets of law. We have a set of laws for the common people then we have a set of laws for the elitists.
Dr. McComas: Exactly
Chuck Baldwin: Edward, thanks for calling the program, you're next.
Edward: Yes, Sir. Yea, what you just got through saying, it's not j-u-s-t-i-c-e, it's just-us. I'm not real educated but I know enough when somebody is crooked to know it's wrong and I know when people don't care. It seems like anybody you talk to anymore says, "Well, you know there ain't nothing I can do about it." But I'll tell you one thing, I won't stop until I'm dead. I'm trying to do something about it. This is my country. I fought for it in the Korean War. I'm out here batting my head everyday trying to tell these people, "Look man let's don't give up, they're not the boss, God's the boss." We can not disobey God's law because these people are disobeying their own laws.
Chuck Baldwin: Well, yea, I feel the same way sometimes, Edward. Sometimes I feel like I come to this radio program and do just exactly that, beat my head against the wall, but I'm like you I'm not going to stop until I'm dead. I thank you very much for the call.
Brother McComas, he brings up an interesting point. Has it not been historically true that it was the pulpits of our country that cried out against corruption wherever it found itself, whether in the church, or in business, or politics? There was a righteous authority that seemed to go with the pulpits of history. They cried out for righteousness and were, I think in a large sense, responsible for reigning in vice and villainous behavior. We've pretty much lost that, have we not?
Dr. McComas: We sure have. There was a day in this country when the pastor was known as the parson, which means "the person" of the community. There was no town meeting that was ever set up without the consent and knowledge of the parson because they didn't dare do anything that would interfere with the spiritual schedule of the community. And the school boards and all of the other city business or town business revolved around and took second place to what was happening at the church. And as the late Vance Havner said, "The devil is not necessarily fighting the church today, he's just joined it." And he ignores it because he know it's about to self-destruct. And that brother that called in and said that he was going to hang in there with the fight until he was dead-If we had a few more of those we could still see some things happen for the glory of God and for the benefit of our nation.
Chuck Baldwin: So what has happened to the courage and the resolve of the pulpit? What is it that has made the pulpit so cowardly?
Dr. McComas: I think basically pastors today have been duped into believing that they are running in some sort of a popularity contest. And they are afraid to offend people and consequently they want to stay on the good side of everybody, which can't be done. You know there was a day in America when you could attend any major denomination and hear the Gospel and be saved there. That's not true today. And the thing that happened is not that the high brass of the denominations got together and said, "We're not going to preach the Gospel any more." But the man in the pulpit discovered that the man in the pew was not agreeing with him. He was spending so much time trying to soothe out the irritated problems that he was creating by preaching the Word of God. And so he decided the best way is just stop preaching the Word of God. Entertain them. Give them a few funny stories and you can bring in a little bit of the Word of God so long as it's not offensive. But the problem is they don't have the courage to do exactly what Paul told Timothy, "Preach the Word, be instant in season and out of season." Give it to them straight and let the chips fall where they will.
Chuck Baldwin: And preaching the Word is more than preaching the Gospel isn't it?
Dr. McComas: Yes it is.
Chuck Baldwin: Let's get right back to the phones and talk with Dr. Tom. Thanks for calling Dr. Tom.
Dr. Tom: Thank you. Resurrection blessings to two distinguished pastors.
Chuck Baldwin: Thank you very much.
Dr. Tom: I think you hit the nail right on the head when you talked about how our pulpits in this country and elsewhere for that matter are being defiled by so, so many pastors and clergymen not speaking the true Gospel particularly when it has a social bent. I've got another example here too of inactivity. You may have found today in the London Telegraph that gay activists stormed the pulpit in the archbishop of Canterbury's pulpit.
Chuck Baldwin: Yes, I've got that story in front of me.
Dr. Tom: During his Easter sermon! And guess what? Some 2,000 worshippers sat there like sheep and did nothing.
Chuck Baldwin: That's right.
Dr. Tom: And to me that is one of the main things that is defiling our whole Judeo-Christian movement in this country.
Chuck Baldwin: There is no doubt about that.
Dr. Tom: And the archbishop of Canterbury, told his worshippers when it was all over, "This has happened before and doubtless it will happen again." Well, no wonder because nobody is doing anything about it. Christ would have taken a whip and chased them out of there.
Chuck Baldwin: Well, I remember His doing something like that on one occasion. Dr. McComas brought up the fact that John the Baptist was beheaded not for preaching the Gospel but for telling the king that it was unlawful for him to live in an adulterous relationship with his brother's wife. Yet today that would be considered intermeddling in politics wouldn't it?
Dr. Tom: It would. I would like for your guest to comment on what I said about the inactivity of so many Christians particularly when a pulpit is desecrated. This happened also in St. Patrick's Cathedral if you recall with cardinal, my friend by the way, Cardinal O'Conner. And he sat there and did nothing. Now true, you know some people say, "Well, we must take the Christ stance and be peaceable." But I think they've crossed over the line.
Chuck Baldwin: Well, when they attack a church and disrupt the services, they've definitely crossed the line. I'd like to see them try it in my congregation.
Dr. McComas: One of the reasons I think that the laity are so lackadaisical and they don't stand is the fact that the man in the pulpit has failed to instill the fear of God in them. He has not given them the truth. They have sat in that moderation of the so-called preaching of the Word of God where they hear only one side about God, that He is a big sob-sister and that you should turn the other cheek and you never do anything to defend the truth. But, you know the early preachers in our country went to the pulpit and laid their revolver upon the pulpit along with their Bible. Had there been a disturbance as there was in England, I assure you that the preacher himself would have taken control. And you know when a church service is underway there is a national law in the United States that gives him the authority to keep that service under control just like the captain of an aircraft or the captain of a ship. He has the authority to control that situation and to do it by whatever means is necessary.
The pulpits have become so cowardly and wishy-washy that they do not stand on the rights that God gave them and that our country gave them.
Chuck Baldwin: Phil, did he already answer your question? Thanks for calling.
Phil: Yea, he got pretty close. I'm a qualified lay-speaker in one of our major religions. They asked me not to do a talk on Sodom and Gomorrah because I might offend some people. You know these people that don't stand up and say what's going on is wrong are just as guilty as the ones doing it, whatever it is. And I'm really getting tired of these lily-livered preachers. When I was a boy they said, "turn or burn, you're going to hell." Why don't they do that any more? They're all scared to death. The consequences cannot be that bad. It has to turn around at some point. And that's my comment and I'll listen.
Chuck Baldwin: Thanks Phil. I Appreciate the call.
Let's make a comparison Kenny. Back in the '60s and early '70s the liberal clergy were not afraid to engage the social issues of the day. They took their pulpit ministry right into the streets. They took their pulpits to the protests. They were the ones leading the charge for social revolution. Now, here we are. Our culture has been taken over by liberalism, agnosticism, humanism and hedonism. And the conservative Christian pulpit remains mute, deaf and dumb.
Dr. McComas: Sure. When that social revolution that you referred to was underway they would lock hands with all sorts of sordid people and lay down in the streets of Chicago or one of the other major cities. And the interesting thing is even if the whole economy and if the system under which we operate trying to keep law and order had been uprooted in conformance to their dictate they still would not have been satisfied. They aren't satisfied today. And the unfortunate thing is it was a one-sided thing because the press did not take a stand against them. They praised them for their courage and then the conservatives who have the truth and the responsibility to dispense the truth have developed lockjaw. We say nothing. And, unfortunately, we're paying a terrible price.
Chuck Baldwin: Do you believe that this current environment of prosperity is setting us up for serious judgement?
Dr. McComas: I don't think there's any question. I almost feel that there is a demonic power involved. I'm not so sure that there isn't some demonic shield around President Clinton that makes him untouchable by every effort to try to bring him out into the open and expose the truth on him. I think that we have reached that point where God is ready to judge and, as Mrs. Graham said when she read the manuscript of Billy Graham's book World Aflame, "If God does not judge America soon, he'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah." I believe that the dark clouds are already over the horizon and I think at any moment the bubble could burst. And I think the economy that we are floating on is a very temporary, dangerous thing and I believe that any day we could wake up and realize that it's all over. Not only that, I think we're facing World War III. I believe that the hordes of the East are preparing for war. And I believe that the hooks were put in the mouth as Ezekiel spelled out in Ezekiel 38 and 39. And I think that the attack is ready to be made on Israel and the great climatic event is already brewing and could happen any day.
Chuck Baldwin Dr. McComas, as someone who believes in a pretribulation rapture, it bothers me that it seems so many of my brothers and sisters use the pre-tribulation rapture as an excuse to sit back and do nothing. They seem to be saying, "Well, the Lord is going to come and deliver me from all this."
Then, let me follow up by saying that despite the best efforts of some to pinpoint the United States of America in Bible prophecy that we are unable to do so. There is no clear-cut, definitive place in Bible prophecy for the United States of America. It seems very presumptive to me to suggest that we in the United States will not have to endure many troublous times before the rapture takes place.
And not only that, a belief in the pre-tribulation rapture does not excuse our inactivity. Is it not the command of Christ to occupy till He comes? Are we not charged with the responsibility of being faithful to that assignment regardless of God's prophetic timetable?
Dr. McComas: Yes, you're exactly right. You know Napoleon wrote some of the bloodiest pages in world history. He was once asked, "Where would the final battle be fought that would produce the final world power?" After studying the world map very carefully he pointed to the valley of Megiddo. [Exactly where the Bible says Armageddon will be fought.] While the Cold War was on we kept our focus on Russia and totally ignored China. During that time China built an eight-lane highway down along the Pakistan border into the Persian Gulf. They have maneuvered a half-million soldiers upon the border. They have maneuvered their Navy so they could move through the Straits of Hormuz and move into that Persian Gulf and take it over overnight.
And you know in the book of the Revelation we are told that there are angels in the River Euphrates. And the Euphrates is the dividing line between the Mideast and the Fareast. And in world history there has been no western power ever penetrate far into the east and none in the east ever penetrate far into the west because those angels or spirits hold them back. Kipling, the great British military leader penetrated further into the east than any other. When he turned back in defeat and despair he said, "The east is east and the west is west and never the twain shall meet."
And there are people living today in China and I'm talking about Christians, believers in Christ that probably think they're already in the Great Tribulation period. There are many parts of the world where Christians are suffering terrible persecution. And for us to think that simply because we're going to be raptured before that particular day that Jesus referred to, there'd never been one before it or never will be one afterwards like it, does not mean that we are going to escape some awful persecution. And I think it is beginning to be released upon Christians even in America right today.
Chuck Baldwin: I couldn't agree more. I find it amazing that those who are given the responsibility of being the spiritual overseers would not be preaching this with fervor and with great abandon. Yet, it's just the opposite, we have developed a "feel good" preaching style today.
You referred to religion becoming entertainment oriented. We're seemingly more interested in how many people we can attract to our services rather than preaching truth to those who do attend regardless their number. We're more concerned about building our gymnasiums and our entertainment centers than we are giving people the truth. As a result, I think we really have a generation of Christians here in America that is probably more unprepared to deal with the future than any generation of Christians that this country has ever had. Agree?
Dr. McComas: No question. Could I make this further comment? When Jesus wrote His last, His final Words to the seven churches in Asia Minor which represent the churches of all ages, isn't it interesting that He started out with Ephesus? They are like spokes in a wheel. The church in the middle, which was the most insignificant of all of those churches, was the recipient of His longest letter. He had more to say to them than He did all of the others combined. And I think this emphasis on great crowds and influence and putting on our shows and the externalities, definitely condemns us.
Chuck Baldwin: In fact, the last church of those seven churches in Asia Minor, the Laodicean church, heard the strongest words of condemnation by Christ. And one of the indictments against this church was their material and political prosperity. All their wealth and influence was not seen as a credit by God, was it?
Dr. McComas: No it was not.
Chuck Baldwin: And to go back to our prosperous economy for a minute. People seem to be saying, "Well, the economy is good, therefore, things are great in America. Just the opposite is true. Our nation has never seen the depth of depravity that we see today. And yet because our focus on a good economy we are ignoring the weightier matters. The great moral and spiritual issues, ultimately, are going to either bless or curse our nation.
In the remaining moments what encouragement could you give to the laymen and to the ministers alike?
Dr. McComas: I would say to every laymen listening today, if your pastor is courageous and proclaims the Word of God and issues warnings of things that are in the process of happening about us, then encourage him. Let him know that you are praying for him everyday. If the pastor isn't preaching courageously then the men need to talk to him and tell him that he is failing them and failing his responsibility. Pastors need to be encouraged to take a stand because time is fast running out.
Chuck Baldwin: Well, thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you for your ministry. And thank you for being on our program today.
Dr. McComas: My pleasure.
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